Curse

Schorny · May 27, 2005, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

Each class also comes with its own healing sort of spells, so it is very possible that one day, there will be a good pvp group with no monk (which would cause TOTAL confusion onto who to target) and may end up winning quite a bit.

Yesterday morning we had 35 wins in the ascalon arena. Yeah, I know newbish - but we got one Warrior (me) 2 rangers and 1 elementalist.

No monk, neither primary no secondary. Our enemies were very confused

Although we lost to a team with 2 monks, but not because of the healing but because of the more rez available

We won against 2 monks a few times before... So healing is not the main point here (same in the yak's bend arena), if you know you have to watch yourself you play different. An other char of mine is a healer (Me/Mo) and I can really see the difference - if I say i'm the team healer people depend on me to heal them... So they die pretty fast when I get into trouble and not be able to heal them for a time...

A healer is important to a team, but also a Tank is. And if you got noone that can deal range damage then you also got problems... One team we fought that morning had only rangers or at least most of them were... They stayed away from us and I (as warrior) had no chance to get close to them, because everytime I tried to get closer they shut me down

so I had to stay out of the battle and let the elem do a nice AoE spell so they split up and all ran in different directions

That's just my 2 Cent, I know I'm not far enough to tell if monks are too strong/weak, but currently I feel they are perfectly balanced. No killer class so far...

Katana · May 27, 2005, 09:45 AM // 09:45

best way to kill a monk...

4x Air Ele's using Surge then Orb. Insta-gib on any 1 person, and i know, cos we tried it :P

Monks are hardly invincible 2v1, a good monk can hold old for a few seconds vs 2 warriors, but eventually they fall over. I suggest you drop Mending & re-think your pre-made paladin build :P

Sythion · May 27, 2005, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Healing and stopping healing is the name of the game. It will make or break a group. A group with no monks can win against monks if they can successfully defend against it. Many others have said the same thing here. There's just one skill I have an issue with:

Reversal of Fortune.

Every other monk skill can be countered by any class, out damaging/DoTing the heals, interrupting the attacks, destroying enchantments, or mesmering them.

This is NOT the case for reversal of fortune.

I may be short sighted, but the only way I can see to counter this skill is to run a monk out of mana (a mesmer only trait), or backfire for temporary solution (again, mesmer only). Any counters are too slow to beat reversal of fortune without luck. Damage is actually coutner productive, and because the enchantment goes away as soon as it is hit, it is rarely possible (or time efficient) to remove the enchantment. Furthermore, with regen on, a monk with reversal of fortune can simply spam himself with it and tank 3 heavy damage enemies.

In an arena game (which has randomness, but is based on class power, not TEAM Builds, and DOES have its own strategies), if you face a monk with reversal of fortune, and you do not have a mesmer, you lose.

Pleistoanax Lambert · May 28, 2005, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by concac

Im really sick of this game, monks are too powerful. It's like, our life depend on monks. Two people hardly to kill a monk if if 1v1 monks like invincible.

Most of group win or lose are totally depends on monks. Group that has no monks = 90% chance will be lost against group that has monk.

Actually I love it when Ifind a monk alone in the back after useing sprint.

Pure Strike - Sever Art. - Gash - Pure Strike (maybe a couple slashes) then either Final Thrust or Pure strike again..

All of that happens in a few seconds... and that monk is either dead or some other monk healed him.

And people don't realize.. a distracted monk is a useless monk to the other team....so... wheres the too powerfull part?

Burgio · May 28, 2005, 02:45 AM // 02:45

all i no is i find my self getting very frustrated in pvp when im hacking at a guy for 10 min cuz a monk is refilling his health i think for pvp monks speells shpuldnt be as powerful or even no momks at all

fix dark · May 28, 2005, 04:55 AM // 04:55

You people who complain about Monks being too overpowered are very narrow-minded. Think "out of the box." Think of all the HUNDREDS of skills that counter monks' healing ablities. That's why ArenaNet gave each class so many freaking skills. Just like there is an opposite reaction to every action, there is a counter to every single thing in Guild Wars. Use your brain a bit.

And people who say you can't win without a monk, I made an easy 30-win streak in the random arena with 3 rangers and an elementalist. But that doesn't say much b/c most of the people in random arena SUCK. I've played probably 2% of my random arena matches with people who ACTUALLY follow calls and stuff.

But anyway, when I'm a Mesmer I can usually rape those monks silly...unless there is some good defence going on.

Goonter · May 28, 2005, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Monks may not be to powerful, but they are too important if only by popular opinion.

concac · May 28, 2005, 07:39 AM // 07:39

I've seen that most people who play HoH or team arean at maximum level agreed that Monks are overpower. Those who play in Ascalon, Shivepark doesn't agree that monks are overpower. Guys, in noobies arena monks are not needed however when you reached to level 20 and started play HoH you will experience it by yourself. Monks aren't powerful in noobies zones but once they got all skills you will notice. Meser, somehow can not kill a monk a lone, warrior, or ranger, nobody can kill monk by 1v1 . However, they can kick your ass if your secondary class are not monk.

I had some pvp where my group and opponent group each has a monk and our battle ended after 1 hour of fighting. Normally, if group with no monk vs the same group with no monk, the battle seem more fun, and ended quick.

In HoH at 3 groups fighting each other I experienced that most of the time the winner can be known by time up. It isn't that one of them is destroyed by the opponent.

In HoH you can have a group with 4 monks but you can not have a group with 4 warriors and no monks ( you can have it but your chance to win against group with 4 monks are 1 percent )

In HoH you dont need archers in your group, you dont need mesers in your group, necromancers, or elementalists but the monks.

by the time you got to play HoH you will have to agree with me that your life, your group will depend on monks completely. those who play HoH agree with me at this point, right ? your life depends on monk ( archer, meser, ranger, warrior, necromancer, elementalist)

The Red Knight · May 28, 2005, 07:44 AM // 07:44

debilitating shot and interupts for the win vs monks? =/

concac · May 28, 2005, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by fix dark

You people who complain about Monks being too overpowered are very narrow-minded. Think "out of the box." Think of all the HUNDREDS of skills that counter monks' healing ablities. That's why ArenaNet gave each class so many freaking skills. Just like there is an opposite reaction to every action, there is a counter to every single thing in Guild Wars. Use your brain a bit.

And people who say you can't win without a monk, I made an easy 30-win streak in the random arena with 3 rangers and an elementalist. But that doesn't say much b/c most of the people in random arena SUCK. I've played probably 2% of my random arena matches with people who ACTUALLY follow calls and stuff.

But anyway, when I'm a Mesmer I can usually rape those monks silly...unless there is some good defence going on.

Are you teaching us how to play ? have you ever tried HoH and your group has no monk and win the HoH ? We are disscusing not asking someone to teach us how to play. I tell you what, 30 wins in Random arena with no monk are not something big, there is group got 120 straight wins without the monk. Personally my highest record in Random arena, Ascalon , shivepark are 40 wins straight without monk, and I can find 10 + win easlily in Random arena which is for noob like you.

If you can win HoH without monk then I will believe you. Otherwise, dont act you are smart while you are not.

Aria · May 28, 2005, 08:26 AM // 08:26

concac, please refrain from using personal attacks. This forum is a place for discussion, not for jabs at another person's intelligence.

As for monks being overpowered, I maintain that anyone who clutches this idea simply does not know how to effectively shut them down. Sure, it depends on what type of monk build the team is running, but there is always a way to defeat them. Since you're talking about Tombs and 8v8, it's not difficult to shut down monks once you pinpoint a weakness within the build.

As for the argument that your life depends on the monk.. I don't really see what this argument proves. It's just a self-evident statement. As someone else has already said, players inevitably take damage. Healers are thus needed, no matter the circumstance, no matter the type of healer. Monks, at the moment, are simply the best at what they are meant to do -- healing -- and so remain a crucial part of the group.

Sure, one can argue that a ranger is not necessary for an HoH team. One can even argue the same about mesmers, warriors, elementalists, etc. The reason that this argument doesn't really prove a point lies in the fact that a team *needs* damage dealers. If you lump all the other classes into "damage dealer," you have another crucial component of the team. Try getting to HoH without damage dealers.

Of course, there are also the necessary debuffers, snarers, etc, to consider, but to keep this post relatively short, I'll shove them off to the side for now.

I can see an argument needing more variety for healers as the E/Mo just doesn't compete as well with a primary monk at the moment. However, a statement that monks are overpowered and that teams possessing no monks should be self-sufficient enough to compete head to head with one that does?

-_-

Should I argue that it's impossible to kill a team without damage dealers, and thus damage dealers are too powerful?

Find a few good mesmers, please.

Guardian Legend · May 28, 2005, 11:41 AM // 11:41

The biggest advantage of Monks comes not from anything specifically related to Monks, but from how the Enchantment awareness system works. That is, in GW, you have little to no awareness of what Enchantments are on your target, and thus it is harder to counter them effectively. For example, a target with Healing Hands cast on him should probably NOT be melee attacked until the Enchantment wears off. But this is hard to be aware of, since sometimes only trial-and-error can discover what is going on. Furthermore, the chaos of battle, the requirement of the player to look at his skill bar, at the map, at health bars, and so forth... means that watching the little "+Blue #" pop up next to your target is even harder to detect.

I think we need to be able to detect what Enchantments and Hexes are on a target. There should be a list that shows up. Not just Yellow Up Arrow and Pink Down Arrow. Either this, or Enchantments should be far, far weaker than Hexes. Hexes should be more powerful, if they're not already, than Enchantments, because Hexes can be easily Called out and removed by the multitude of anti-Hex spells. Enchantments should be weaker than Hexes because of their "stealth" aspect, which makes them harder to detect and counter effectively.

Some Enchants are easy to detect. I think Aegis gives a distinctive effect, as do other enchants. But many enchants seem to be identical in graphical effect to others.

Burgio · May 28, 2005, 01:29 PM // 13:29

nvm wrong thing

Poppinjay · May 28, 2005, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

If healing was less efficient than damage there would be no point to playing a healer, as you'd only ever be a speed bump. The time/energy that was spent healing would be better served dealing damage, so no healing would take place.

If no other characters regained hitponts back on their own then you would be right, but that is not the case in guild wars. Saving somebody life by healing them while they are in battle could let them live to regenerate on their own or with just some aid.

Monks should have to use their healing abilities sparingly and in carefully timed places. If healing is TOO easy then nothing can die.

Anyway, I am not saying that monks are THAT overpowered. But the idea that to be useful at all heals must be more effective than damage doesn't fly at all.

In real life bullets can do damage much more quickly than medics can mend. Nevertheless medics are important in real wars just as doctors are in real life.

I think it would be nice if there were a couple minor heals in th elementalists water line. They shouldn't be a nice as the monks, but maybe they could work in a slightly different way that gives them an edge under some circumstances.

I want to make it clear though that I feel that AN has done a better job balancing character classes and skills than any other other game of its kind that I have seen. And I don't just simply support whatever game I happen to be playing. I pissed all over shadowbane in their forums.

Pop

Poppinjay · May 28, 2005, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Perhaps reducing th effectiveness of monk SELF heals would be enough too. Not enough to make it ineffective...just less effective than it is now. If monks were better healed by other monks than themselves then they would be primarily a support class.

But anyway, I don't think any of these changes are coming in soon. Even though they are slightly overpowered it is not really worth it to change the rules now and anger all the people who have already built their monks. The best way to handle it is that, when other classes are boosted with some new skills etc, monks stay the same.

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Principa Discordia · May 28, 2005, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Enough of this feaces, this is a pathetic "WAAAHHH NERF!" thread, and I wish I'd caught it sooner. Locked.